Brenda 00:00:02 Welcome to your. Yes. Filled life. I'm Brenda Winkle, an intuitive leadership coach and somatic guide for high achievers, high performers and spiritual seekers who want more freedom, ease, joy and energy. You are a visionary, leader driven, intuitive and ready for more, more flow in your work, more presence and joy in your life. More trust in yourself, your intuition, and the decisions that you make every day. Here we explore the intersection of intuition, spiritual growth, leadership, and energetics to create energetic sovereignty, blending practical strategy with energetic alignment so you can create success that feels deeply fulfilling at work, at home, in your relationships, and in your personal well-being. You'll hear inspiring stories, practical strategies, and high level conversations designed to help you expand your leadership, deepen your spiritual growth, and integrate the woo and spirituality into your daily life. Because when your energy is aligned, everything flows ready to elevate how you lead and live. Start by downloading my free energy audit at twinkle. Com forward slash audit and discover what's fueling you or depleting you.
Brenda 00:01:26 Let's do this. Your yes filled life starts now. Hi, Michelle.
Michele 00:01:35 Hi. I'm so happy to see you.
Brenda 00:01:37 I'm so happy to see you. Where are you? Are you in LA or new?
Michele 00:01:41 I'm in LA. Yeah, but it's just cold here in New York. So you'd think I was in New York. All this global warming, the weather's like crazy.
Brenda 00:01:50 It is before we just dive in, because I know we're going to dive. I have a question for you. What is one thing you either did or did not do. That has led to your yes filled life.
Michele 00:02:03 So I would say it was starting my writing career because I am someone who is so regimented and safe and comfortable. And so I was this was 25 plus years ago, but I had been in a job that I hated. I got fired and I decided to go freelance, and that was working from home wasn't a thing back then. None of my friends were doing it. And I'm someone who's very safe.
Michele 00:02:30 And so the normal thing would have been to get another job. And yet I decided to take this chance. And even though the early years might not have been useful life, it really has led me to that because I was able to be around when my kids were home or. And now I just feel like I have so much freedom in terms of where I can be to work. But also the other part of that is like in the last few years, the thing I've done is, is really be able to trust my gut when I'm taking on projects and make. And like you always know when you're about to take one, that's not right and sometimes you still take it. So it's learning to trust my gut and not take those and know that something else is going to come along and I'll be fine, you know.
Brenda 00:03:14 I love everything that you just said. Everything like from Embracing the Unknown, which was kind of out of character for you at.
Michele 00:03:24 The time, out of character.
Brenda 00:03:25 And then also listening to that inner nudge when something's not aligned.
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Brenda 00:04:54 Go to Brenda Winkle Intuitive Way for more information. So first of all, Michelle and I have known each other for a while. We met in Florida, literally on the beach as Michelle was coming out of the Atlantic Ocean, and I just locked eyes with her and started to walk toward her with no reason other than I just felt like drawn. I we had never seen each other before and.
Michele 00:05:24 And we were just chatting and it was and I'm not I'm sort of shy and not a small talk person. So it was like it was so out of character for me to. And then it wound up being such a nice friendship.
Brenda 00:05:35 Yeah. Yeah. And ironically, we were going to the same place, but we didn't know it. Right. And so we got to spend some time together there. And then over the years we spent a few days together. Yes. And it's just been wonderful and really, like you say, a really nice friendship. Very grateful.
Michele 00:05:51 Yes. And it's so nice to see how you've grown.
Michele 00:05:54 And your business has grown since I met you. It's unbelievable.
Brenda 00:05:57 Thank you. I really appreciate that. And, you know, you've been a part of it because you have helped me really learn to articulate different things and put myself out there in a different way.
Michele 00:06:12 And this is all going to be in that book. You're writing just you don't realize it yet.
Brenda 00:06:18 Yeah. You're right, you're right. So I remember you talking about when and by the way, I've taken a writing class from Michelle and it was incredible. So value packed. Yes, it was really fun. And I remember you talking about getting something published. Your very first piece published in the New York Times. And I'm wondering if you can tell that story because that story has inspired me still.
Michele 00:06:46 Well, so that story is a perfect example. So I took this job that I didn't like. Within three months, I knew it was not for me. I was an account executive in an ad agency and it just wasn't for me.
Michele 00:06:58 And it was not creative and but it was a job and I was 22 and needed a job. And so to make myself feel better, I started taking writing classes at the New School in NYU, and I loved it. So it was sort of my outlet. And every. And so then in one of those classes, the teacher invited me to her private class, which was in her living room. It was like 7 to 10 people who were amazing writers. And every week you had to show up with two pages written, like you could not walk in the door without those two pages. And so it was a stressful from like Thursday till that day. It was so stressful every week. What can I come up with? And plus you had to read that piece and get comments on it. And so it was super intimidating and so personal. And like now I feel like why was it so stressful? But it was, and I didn't know any of the other people. I mean, over time, I was in the class for years.
Michele 00:07:53 We did know each other, but and so I would just write, you know, about whatever. And so I had this experience where I had two golden retrievers living in an apartment in New York City, and there was a dog run at NYU a few blocks away. And my now ex-husband and I were wanted to join. And so I thought, oh, you just go up, you, you know, walk in. And it wasn't like that. It turned out it was like applying to college. And so we had an application. We had an interview. It took six months from the application in to hear that we got an interview. Then we had all this. So I wrote a just for that class, just because I needed two pages. I wrote something that I was sort of even embarrassed to read because people were writing deep. Most of the stuff is deep and thoughtful and but I showed up, I wrote it, everyone was laughing. They thought it was really funny and that was it.
Michele 00:08:43 And then a couple months later, there was a big controversy in New York City about dog runs and or dogs in Central Park, and the commissioner at the time had said something about how there should be more dog runs. So I was like, wait a minute, I can connect this to my story. So I changed the lead. I added that, you know, current event, wrote my story, walked it over to the New York Times like back then. That's how you handle it. So I dropped it off with a note for the editor and didn't think I'd hear it was a Thursday. And he called me on Friday and he said, if you're willing to work with me all weekend on edits, this will run Sunday. And I nearly fell over. And it did run Sunday, and it was huge. It was like a half a page with an illustration. Wow. And and up until then, even though I was in this job that I hated, what I would do is I do my job until 5 or 6, and then I would stay after and right and back then the world of magazines, every magazine had a personal essay, so I thought that would be my way in.
Michele 00:09:45 And so I kept sending these personal essays out and kept getting rejected and rejected. And again, I didn't know it was a career, but I just thought, oh, it'd be nice to be published. And once that was published the next day, that week I had like five. And back then the editor in chief reached out to I had five different editor in chief's reach out to me and say, oh, you know that story you sent us about this? Now we want it or that or hired me. And so I was still working at the time. And I in the bio, I said that I was a freelance writer, my boss came into my office and he's like, you're not a freelance writer. You work here. You obviously don't like it here. And then within a month, I got fired. And I'm still I was in touch with him years after, and we joked about how he started my career, but it was devastating to be fired. But that did give me the strength to some degree to, okay, I'm going to try and freelance.
Michele 00:10:35 So and it worked out. It was just it was really meant to be. So that pressure. So I teach a class now different from the one you took that's writing from personal experience. Also, where you have to come with your pages and you have to and I know how stressful it is, but there's also it's so great when you read something because most of the time the feedback is positive. So I've modeled it after that because so many of the things I wrote in that class have been published, so many of them turned into personal essays. And so it just was so worth it to have that stress pressure each week. Which again is that. Yeah. And that's out of my being out of my comfort zone was that class. And yet it worked out.
Brenda 00:11:18 It did it. It has worked out very well. So you're pointing to something here. You're pointing to a few things. One is you're pointing to being rejection tolerant by submitting things to a lot of places. So you're not waiting for one thing to come back.
Brenda 00:11:37 That's really important. And then the other piece that you're pointing to is you wrote all the time whether or not you are working on something. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Michele 00:11:48 Yes. The writing all the time is the key. Right. Like Anne Lamott, who's a favorite writer of mine, said, the hardest part is getting your, you know, ass in the chair and writing each day, and it really is. And so and you can make so many excuses. And so that is when I'm working with my writing class or even celebrities that I write books for, I give them writing assignments, I give them writing prompts, and I tell them to set their timer for seven minutes and answer my writing prompt, and that I feel like, again, we get so much content for the books from that. And but it's being consistent. It's sitting down and doing those seven minutes. So I don't do it every day, but I try to do it as much as possible. And back then, for now, I'm busier with writing other people's books.
Michele 00:12:32 But back then, every single day I made myself write. And it was. It was stressful because sometimes and I would never look at it. But as I'm writing, I was thinking, this is so stupid. This is. And then you come back. And my rule is like to not look at it for a few days. And most of the time when you come back and look at it, you're like, wow, this is great. Did I write this? You know, or you don't even remember it? So the consistency obviously with anything in life is so important, but with writing, it's just to keep writing and writing and writing and just noticing. Because once you start writing, you start noticing things like one of the exercises in the class that I do is like, just think of something and imagine it. And the mats as like a one inch picture frame, like just like, so pick a scene, you know, with your grandmother, the farmers market, and write one little piece of that.
Michele 00:13:21 And so once you start doing that, you start noticing details, wherever you are. And so that's really important. And then the rejection tolerant, the rejection was tough. I mean, it wasn't I wasn't so tolerant, but I guess I just had to be and I still have the fat printed out spreadsheet where I would have the name of the article, who I sent it to. And back then you sent like a postcard with it self-addressed. That said, we have received your thing. And I, you know, kept getting those things rejected. But I knew a lot of them were really well written. And so eventually most of my pieces that I sent out found a home or a variation of it was done. And it also got me my first column, which was in a shape magazine, had a teen magazine, and I got a monthly column in there, and from then on I always had columns. And so it was just like, the rejection is important and, you know, anything that you're you want to do that's worthwhile, you're going to get rejected.
Michele 00:14:19 But it's really hard at first, you know?
Brenda 00:14:22 Yes, it is hard. It is hard. And I love how you highlight almost everything that you wrote eventually got published. I had something that I sent out in November, which, I mean, if you it's January as we're recording at the end of January. It's not that long ago, but it feels like a long time ago. Right? And I just had the editor reach back out and say, hey, we want this. Can you do X, Y, and Z for it for a magazine?
Michele 00:14:46 And that's great.
Brenda 00:14:48 It was felt really good. And I'm putting out enough stuff that I. I'm like, I'm not waiting around to hear from people because I'm just throwing submissions out every which way. And sometimes they hit, and sometimes it takes just a little bit of time.
Michele 00:15:04 And sometimes they reach back out and it's already been published somewhere. And amazingly, they're kind of intrigued by that. Like, I had that happen where they'd say, we want this.
Michele 00:15:15 And I said, oh, it already was published in Runner's World. And the editor was intrigued by that. you know, it looked like I was so in demand. But yes, I think constantly sending and I was sending so much out that at times I'd get rejection and I wouldn't even remember what. What was that thing I wrote? You know. But and so sending a lot out is important, But also you can have one story but or one article, but you do have to tailor it for each publication. So you want to be careful that you are like knowing who their audience is or just tweaking it. and that works too, because then they're all different essays. But you definitely have want that. But you also want to send a lot out at once. Yeah, really.
Brenda 00:15:59 And to your point, if I'm working with a specific editor, I will send her something and I'll give her first right of refusal. So I'm not going to send that out to another editor just because I know the editors now.
Brenda 00:16:10 Right. So I am very careful not to sprinkle too far and too wide unless I say in the initial thing, I really want to get this out. I'm sending it to more than one person, right?
Michele 00:16:22 Right. Yeah. And also being willing to make changes because I know in the writing group that I was in, I was definitely not the best writer. They were they were incredible writers in that class. But I think, I mean, I haven't kept up with them, but I know within like the ten years after the class, I was the only one who was doing this full time. And because no one was willing to have changes. Like I remember, one girl had an amazing story and a magazine wanted it, but she wasn't willing to make changes, you know, to. And I'm like, change every word, but just take my feel. Take my. Yeah. Like I just want it out there. So you have to be willing to make changes and accept. That's why I like, you know, I work on I write books for people and I prefer traditional publishing to self-publishing because I love The village, even though you can get that with self-publishing.
Michele 00:17:13 I love knowing there's sort of scaffolding and someone else who's going to read it and get their opinion and, you know, tell me, make a change or tell me it's not clear. And so you have to be open to not only rejection but comments and feedback. And take it in. Yeah.
Brenda 00:17:32 Can you talk about what it's like helping people write books because you're a ghost writer. What's that? What's that word like?
Michele 00:17:39 It's really fun. I mean, my through line in terms of which projects I pick. Or they have to help someone. The book has to help someone. So whether it's a book on. I wrote a book for one of the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills who almost died of Lyme disease. She had a terrible four year journey, so that helped a lot of people. Or even books on curly hair that helps people because it's so much more than hair. It's self-esteem. Or we did a curly kid's book or so. That's my through line. And it's really fun because people, a lot of people have a story to tell, but they don't realize that they don't need to write it, that they can have someone else do it.
Michele 00:18:18 And so it's really fun because they have this story. And in the beginning they're really nervous and they think this is a huge undertaking. They always ask me like, what's the time commitment? And I'm just I just tell them, you just talk and let me I'm organizing everything. And then I also get them to write with the exercises. But it's really fun. I mean, sometimes I haven't really had a frustrating product project because again, this is their book and I'm just the vessel to get it out. So I never there's really never been something that the person wanted in or out or changed that I didn't agree with. So but it's fun. It's fun to help people, write their books, get their story or their idea out. And also, it's really healing. A lot of people that I've worked with are on some sort of journey or have had some sort of experience and, like I had one book for a celebrity, and she was going through a terrible divorce. And, and in the beginning, that was all she talked about.
Michele 00:19:17 And by the time the book was done, she's like, I feel healed. I don't need like, I don't need to mention this. So writing is really, really healing and that and it's healing in the moment. Like if you do your seven minutes, if you feel anxious or upset, if you do your seven minutes and like you could do a writing prompt or you can just sometimes I say write a letter to someone, it just gives your writing focus. It doesn't even have to have anything to do with the issue. But so you write in those seven minutes, you feel so much better. You feel healed. You feel calm. Like it's a it's like meditating where you get a benefit in the moment after the meditation, but then over time it heals. And so that's the experience I've had with ghostwriting for I write for celebrities and business leaders and experts, and all of them feel like they've come to some realization by the end of the book. And it's really and they're always amazed at how much easier it was than they thought.
Brenda 00:20:12 I love this. And you've written for some really high profile like A-list type names. And I know that you can't talk about all of them, but I know that you talk about a few of them. What was like of the people that you can talk about. What were some of your experiences is like.
Michele 00:20:29 Well, the one I wrote for the woman who had Lyme disease was an amazing experience because she had a disease that people is like they call an invisible disease. And so you can't see it and you look fine and choose, you know, a beautiful formal model. So and just that was a really great experience because she felt so not seen and heard. And then she got her book out and, and you know, it was called believe me, because no one believed her that she had this thing. And so, it's really fun. I mean, I'm very picky now, you know, I've had 1 or 2 bad experiences with people who are not authentic or just didn't appreciate what I did, but that is like 1 or 2 out of I don't even know.
Michele 00:21:16 I have to count. Like, you know, because I also write book proposals. So I'll help people sell their book to. So there's been a few people, if I've done their book proposal and it's sold, but I'm on another project or I can't do the book. So it's been a lot. I can't, I have to count, but it's it's just great to help people and it's fun to be in the world. And I think I'm sort of the I'm very discreet and I'm, I'm not I'm just sort of a wall. And I don't, you know, nothing surprises me. I sign an NDA, so and I'm, I just kind of am very open and accepting. And I think, I think my strength is making people feel comfortable telling these really difficult stories sometimes.
Brenda 00:21:57 I would agree you're just so easy to talk to because you're so genuine and safe, and you keep a confidence like no one I've ever met.
Michele 00:22:05 So yeah, I'm the wall. So it's it's good. It's it's really good.
Michele 00:22:10 I know, even after the fact. Like I always offer to sign an NDA, but it's like I'm going to keep it secret anyway. And especially if they're writing a book and there's some good juicy items in there, you don't want to spill it before. But I am very, you know, concerned. I read all my papers. I just want to make sure they feel very safe. Because a lot of times you have to hear the whole story and like I call it like the X-rated version, and then you can pair it down. So they have to be open to telling me everything so I can find a way if there's parts they don't want to share to, you know, share it in that way. But I need to know the whole story to get to that piece. Otherwise it doesn't. It's like it can sound like something's missing, so. Right. You know, it's just creating trust. And it's interesting because in the beginning, people are especially celebrities are very wary and they're very distrusting.
Michele 00:23:01 And by the end it's like, you know, it's just they tell me everything, sometimes too much. It's like being a therapist, you know?
00:23:09 I can only imagine.
Michele 00:23:11 Yeah, it's and also the publication process is stressful because then now this story that's been between the two of us is out in the world. And that's that's very a stressful part or a lot of times people who are more introverted and now they're going to be out there on a press tour or so. Being there, like the shrink sort of during that process is not really part of my job, but it is part of my job.
Brenda 00:23:36 I can only imagine because I know even with the book that I have self-published, there's a part of me that feels extraordinarily vulnerable, knowing that it's out there. And I remember somebody approaching me, I think on a dating app who had bought the book and connected with me on a dating app and referenced a story that I told in the book, in the book. But at the time, he didn't say that he had bought the book.
Brenda 00:24:05 And so it was really jarring to me. And I was like, wait, how do you how do you know that? I know that we haven't had this conversation.
Michele 00:24:14 That's so crazy.
Brenda 00:24:15 He's like, it was in your book. I bought your book when I found your name out.
Michele 00:24:19 Is that stalkerish or is that sweet? I can't.
Brenda 00:24:23 Well, I don't know, honestly. I we didn't stay together very long. Right. I'll just say that.
Michele 00:24:30 Right. So, yeah, I mean, you're putting a personal story out there. And so, you know, I mean, when I work with experts, I've done health books. That's not the same. But even in that, like, every book I work on, whether it's a doctor or business leader or a celebrity, even if it's a prescriptive self-help book, there's always a memoir story aspect because that's you connect with people on their stories, and that's really important. And so even doctors I've worked with tell their personal stories about, which is just much more interesting, even if you're coming to the book for the medical part.
Michele 00:25:07 It's so comforting to know that the author, the doctor, has had the same experience as you.
Brenda 00:25:13 So yeah, I love that. And, you know, I heard a quote and I don't know if it's true or not, but it was something like 80% of the population says that they have a book inside.
Michele 00:25:23 I know it. I think that is the number. It's amazing. I mean, if I had a dollar for every time someone told me they had a great idea, I'd not be doing this. So not everyone has a great idea. but everyone has a book in them. And even if you just write it. I worked with a guy, a very successful entrepreneur, who wasn't sure he wanted to do a book for the world. But we created this great book proposal, which was even more than a proposal because it was it had a lot more like when you do a proposal, each chapter just gets a page. We expanded it, but it wound up being a great thing for his family.
Michele 00:26:00 Like they loved it because they didn't know any of those stories. His kids and grandkids didn't know all those business stories. So it's like getting it on paper is just a good idea. And you can always start with just doing it for you and not not planning to tell anybody. And that happens too. When I have people who are not, you know, maybe from my writing classes. Or I do these VIP days with people and I'm just I always say, just start as if this is just for you. And nine times out of ten, they're so excited about it that they either make it a self-published book or they write something or they do share it. So I think initially when you're writing, don't share with anyone because you don't need anybody's feedback and then they're on your shoulder and then you have these questions. So my I would say like if you're going to write, write thinking this is just for you, nobody's going to see this. And then you can go from there.
Brenda 00:26:53 I love that advice that applies to a lot of things in life, like keep it to yourself until it's fully formed.
Brenda 00:27:00 Ideas, projects, courses. Yes, yes, there's something really magical about keeping it and letting it marinate and get really, really potent before speaking it into the world. Because if there's anybody there who doesn't fully understand, they can really ick on your. Wow.
Michele 00:27:20 Yes, totally. I've never heard that expression, but yes, totally. And that was when you asked the question of the yes filled life that was. I was debating between the writing career or the others to stop worrying about what other people think, which as a former people pleaser that is, you know, used to be really difficult. But now I sort of stopped thinking that way because I'm trusting that I how I feel. But if you keep it to yourself, if you share, sometimes you don't know who what their reaction is going to affect you. And so you don't want someone else's opinion to affect something like that, you know, unless it's going to be the thing that motivates you. Like you need to make a commitment to write your seven minutes every day.
Michele 00:28:03 So then you tell someone. But even with that, you can tell a friend, like, just check in with me and make sure I'm doing it. But you don't have to share what you're doing, what you're writing.
Brenda 00:28:12 Yeah. Until until it's, like, fully cooked.
Michele 00:28:15 Exactly, exactly. And then it's exciting because then it's also great when no one knows you're doing something, and then all of a sudden you have, you know, a manuscript or a chapter or an article published. So I just feel like it's like, keep your head down. That has always been my thing is don't talk about it as much as just do it, because once you do it, it speaks for itself. But there's a lot of people who talk about what they're going to do and talk about it and talk about it, and then they don't actually do it. Or when they do, it's not as good as what they've been talking about. So I think you just keep your head down and go.
Brenda 00:28:49 Agreed.
Brenda 00:28:50 And, you know, sometimes our subconscious is listening as we talk about doing the thing, and we can actually trick ourselves into thinking we've done the thing, but all we're doing is talking about it.
Michele 00:29:00 Yes, it's talking about it's and it's and also that's that's one thing with writing, like a lot of people wait to find the perfect journal or the they can't decide should they do the computer or handwritten or whatever. And the one thing I'm very, like sensory, sensitive. So I do need a journal with smooth paper, and I have a specific pen I like. It's just like from Amazon, but you can't. But a lot of people let that hold them back there. Like, I don't have the perfect journal I don't. And so you can't if you're not going to you got to just write. And I do think it's better for the seven minutes to do it by hand. I feel like there's a brain hand connection that's just gets things flowing. It helps with the calming and the healing and reducing anxiety.
Michele 00:29:43 And, but if you can't again, do it on your computer, if you're paranoid that people are going to read it, do it on your computer and just, you know, lock it up or something, I want someone I'm working with. Said she kept a journal and she hid it in her apartment so far that when she moved, she forgot to take it and the next person called her and said, we just found your journal. She was mortified.
Brenda 00:30:08 Oh, oh my gosh, you know, when you were talking about the pen, I'm also very sensory sensitive. And if my pen doesn't work like one of those cheap little stupid ones with the caps that people chew.
Michele 00:30:20 Oh, I hate those.
Brenda 00:30:21 I hate those. I won't write, so I get good pens and they don't have to be expensive. I mean, they can't. They can be, but they just need to be a good pen.
Michele 00:30:30 It needs to be. My favorite is the gel. Pentel and I always get purple.
Michele 00:30:35 And then there's this from $7 like journal notebook from Amazon that just has smooth paper. So I feel like as long as it can can it's like reading a book. I like reading a book when the paper is smooth and the font is nice and not that kind of like library, you know, high school like paper that those little books we used to read. So I feel like that does matter. But you can't let it hold you back. Just like you can't let anybody's opinions hold you back when you want to write something. And if you want to get started, the best way is just start writing letters to people, dead or alive, about one one thing you're going through. and then or find writing prompts. Like writing prompts are great. And that's what I give the people I work with is I give them writing prompts to just get it going. And sometimes or we did that in the the class you were in, you know, just and you don't have to do all of them. But just if you do it a few days, it really helps.
Michele 00:31:29 And it's really it can be part of like a nice morning ritual or like before bed ritual. And then the other thing about right hand writing is now there's like on the notes app on your phone, or there's other apps where you can scan the handwriting and it turns into text. So that's a big thing because that used to always be my dilemma was I don't feel like retyping this, and I have such messy handwriting. So that app is really great so that you don't lose if you're if you are writing a book or you're are writing a blog or something, but the handwriting is the way to get it out, you can then use one of those apps and make it into. Then it's on your computer and then you can use it as content.
Brenda 00:32:08 I love that. So you just answered a question that I had, which is how do you how would you advise somebody to get started writing their book? And you just answered that?
Michele 00:32:18 And I would just get like, start writing a letter or ask yourself a question and just answer that question in those seven minutes, like, you know, why do I want to write this book? Or you know, this or even.
Michele 00:32:30 It doesn't have to be a question. It could be this idea is important because and then you just write and you write for the seven minutes. And nine times out of ten. You go over the seven minutes and you're having so much fun. But if you're not like I picked seven, just because it's five is a little too short. Ten can be intimidating, but most people say they keep going. So it's I would say to get started is start with a writing, you know, a letter to someone about what you're doing. And you can have that every single day for, you know, five days, the same idea. Why am I writing this book? And you'll get to it. And usually it's on the fourth page. The answer, you know. So I would do that and I would just start setting up a regular writing time, like put it in your calendar and do the seven minutes. And then I would have one day a week or every two weeks where you take what you've written and you read it.
Michele 00:33:20 And like I said, I would never read it that day, the next day. But you like leave some time for it kind of marinates on its own. And then you put that in your calendar like a day. Just go to a coffee shop and read what you've written and highlight and you'll be it's that part's really empowering, because in those moments you realize that you have something there. and then to just always write with no editor on your shoulder, no one's looking. Don't worry about grammar, don't worry about spelling, don't worry about being neat. Just write. Because. And I tell that to the people I work with and they're sometimes they're like, wait, but I'm typing on our document, I'm going to ruin it. And it's like, well, my job is to clean it up. If you're worrying about spelling and editing and grammar, you're not going to get it out. You need to just get it out.
Brenda 00:34:04 Wow, I love that. I love that Just like it's important to release the perfectionism because that's how the story comes through.
Michele 00:34:12 Yes. And it takes a village to write a book. So even if you are going to self-publish traditional publish, there are other cooks in that kitchen with you. So like, there's going to be an editor, there's going to be a copy editor, there's going to be an agent, there's going to be someone. So you don't have to, which is great because you get your thoughts down and then someone looks at it from a totally different perspective, and it's great. You get such, you know, you have to take a breath and take in the feedback and realize it's coming from a good place because obviously they are going to make comments and changes, but it's you don't need that perfectionist. Like, I was so perfectionist in the beginning, even articles I wrote. And then I realized there are other people, there's scaffolding to make sure that this is, you know, perfect or as good as it's going to be, you know?
Brenda 00:34:56 And, you know, one thing that you taught me is that the editor matters.
Brenda 00:35:00 Like it can't just be some random editor, that some person that says, I'm an editor, it's somebody who needs to understand your journey, the type of writing that you're doing. Because, you know, my book is going to be a little bit about my story. Like it's a little bit memoir, but then it's also a service book with with things that people can try. And one of the people that who is a very experienced editor edited a draft of the book and did not. This was before we had met, did not edit the wait a minute, she let me say this again. She edited my copy that I had given her right, and she took out all of the references to energy, work or spirituality because it didn't resonate with her. And she was like, needs to be science based, needs to be science based. And I was like, oh, thank you for bringing this to my attention. And you're not going to be able to edit this book because this is the book, right?
Michele 00:36:05 That's so interesting.
Michele 00:36:07 That's a really good lesson. It's like that. And I had that experience once I worked on someone's book, and she was very spiritual energy. And we had a really an editor who bought the book but was not energy spiritual at all. Very. So a lot of those things got cut out. And yeah, you have to be and it's also it's still your book in the end. I mean, if you publish it like the editor, they're buying it. If you a traditional publisher gives you an advance. So to some degree they have a say. But hopefully it's your book and what you described as a book that has self-help plus memoir is, I think, the best kind of book because people connect with you on the story and that that's what makes them go on the journey with you. And then but then you're teaching them something. So it's not by being on the journey or sharing a story, you're really opening up instead of talking to them, talking down to them, you're sort of walking alongside them.
Michele 00:37:03 And I think those are the best books.
Brenda 00:37:05 Thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah. So this experience was before we had met, and I carried shame about that experience because I was like, oh, she's right. You know all that. Because again, it was that like you talked about the editor on your shoulder. It was that kind of a feeling where it took it took the wind out of my sails.
Michele 00:37:25 It does. And people, you know, do. I think there was someone in our group who really felt, I think someone I don't know if it was our group or, but someone commented on their writing and it really made them feel. I mean, initially when someone gives you feedback, you always feel a little bit defensive or whatever. Sometimes it's right for you. That definitely wasn't the right advice. And is that the book that you had on Amazon? Was that book that she okay.
Brenda 00:37:52 I eventually discarded the edits and.
Michele 00:37:55 Yeah. And did did your own thing. Yeah.
Michele 00:37:58 Yeah. So that was self-published.
Brenda 00:38:00 It was Self-published, but that book needs to be in a major publishers house. Yeah.
Michele 00:38:06 So yeah.
Brenda 00:38:07 We're.
Michele 00:38:08 Working and that that happens like, well, I forget there's there's a few famous books that were originally self-published, and then they got picked up and, by traditional publishers. So, yeah, if you have a story to tell. I mean, sometimes you think it's not interesting. Sometimes when I'm working with people, they'll turn to me and say, is this even? Does anybody care about this? But if you care about it and you've told 1 or 2 people and they had a reaction, people care about it like they do. Yeah, you just have to find your audience and you know it's going to find its way.
Brenda 00:38:41 Totally, totally. So as I think about the work of writing and and I talk with people, one of the first questions they have is should I self-publish? Should I try and get the book published, and what would the steps even be? And I know that this is like a huge question because there's an entire class on this.
Brenda 00:39:03 But just for real. Simplicity. High level. for for the listener. That's like. I want to toe dip into this. Could you give them a broad overview and then any thing that you offer that could be supportive?
Michele 00:39:21 So a traditional publisher is what's been done for years and years is a person writes a book proposal. They have an they get an agent, the agent submits it to various publishers. And so within the publishing houses there's many, many editors. And so if you have a good agent, what they do is submit it to the correct editor, because one publisher can have various editors, like in your situation, one could be not spiritual, one could love that. So and then ideally, you know, it's submitted and then the publisher, someone loves it and makes you an offer. Sometimes if it's really good, they'll have an auction or bidding. You know, two people bidding against each other, and then they buy your book. They give you an advance, and then they give you a certain amount of time to write it.
Michele 00:40:07 Usually it's like a year or more. I've never had that much. I don't know. I always seem to be on projects where it's like it's due in six weeks or it's not six weeks, but I've had them where it's, you know, been quicker, which I kind of like. But then and so you're paid in advance and so you get half that money up front and then you work on your book and then you either you can have a ghostwriter or you can have a book doctor, you can just write it yourself, because you do have an editor at the publishing company. and if they if you hand in your draft and they really think you need a writer, they'll let you know. But it depends. You know, some people also just have day jobs. They're great writers, but they're a doctor or on a TV show and they can't write it. And so that's and then that traditional publisher has the distribution. So they have a way where it gets into the stores and you know, Barnes and all that.
Michele 00:40:58 But the thing is, today, self-publishing is just such a big thing because it's much easier than it used to be. I have a friend who wrote a book self-published like ten years ago, and then he just did one like two. And the difference is unbelievable. Like what a self-published book today can look like. You wouldn't even be able to tell that it's. And so that's if you, you know, that's two. The other option is self-published. So you write your book, you find a company. And again it's like there's a menu of items where so you're not being given an advance. Now you're paying for this to come out. But you it depends on the situation. Like I don't know what yours was, but sometimes there's self publishers who don't charge you anything. And they just when the book is sold on Amazon or wherever, they take a piece in that moment. So, that, you know, you're not getting an advance up front, but you're also self-publishing. You get your book out much quicker because from a traditional publisher from the day they sell it to when it goes out.
Michele 00:41:58 It's typically like at least two years. And if you really want your story, you know, so that's a benefit. And also it used to be traditional publishers. The marketing was really important. Like they had the marketing team. But we're in a world of social media where people can you can just market your own book. So there's pros and cons to each. But the thing about self-publishing is it's getting closer and closer to traditional publishing because they have menus of and you pay more for more services so you can have a top editor. You can have all the things, the village that you get with a traditional publisher. So, you know, it's less I mean, I've mostly done traditional publish books, and I like it because it's very directed and it's it's, you know, you do have other voices in there saying, but if you have a story that you just want to tell, why not self-publish it? You know, or a lot of people try a traditional publisher, and if that doesn't sell, then they go self-publish, because again, you can do it so quickly.
Michele 00:42:57 and you have a lot more control over the cover and all that. So I was at a ghost writers conference last January and met a lot of really interesting people who have self-publishing companies. So I know because there also have been scam self-publishing companies where people have lost a lot of money. And I've heard those stories. So you want a reputable one. But there are a lot. Not a lot, but there's some really good ones out there. And I met a bunch of those at this conference and I was amazed. I'd never actually I mean, it was like a ghostwriter. I never met another ghostwriter before, like I really hadn't. So it was really it was so much fun to meet other people who do what I do, because I sort of fell into this. I was a magazine writer, and then I just fell into this book writing, which wound up being great because magazines no longer exist. but, you know, so I didn't really know any other ghostwriters, so that was a really fun experience to just compare our ways of doing things.
Michele 00:43:57 I learned a lot about, you know, different ways to build clients and different ways to do the project. But I learned a lot of people self publish and that the quality is really good.
Brenda 00:44:09 That's incredible. So that yeah, you answered a question that popped up for me as you were talking about, how did you get into ghostwriting? And you said it was through the magazine.
Michele 00:44:22 I was working doing freelance writing for magazines and had a full career. And then I was doing I had a column in Cosmo, like a dating column, and there was a dating book by a celebrity, and they wanted a magazine writer. So they reached out to me and I was like, I've never written a book. I didn't even know how much. They were like, do you have an agent? No. Do you know what do you charge? I had no clue. So I wound up getting a friend's Agent to pretend she was my agent and and she, you know, negotiated the deal for me.
Michele 00:44:59 And then she became my agent for, like, ten years, and then she wasn't. I wound up getting from that project. I wound up getting my own work all the time. And I was bringing it to her, and I was like, why am I paying her to, like, I'm bringing this in. So. And I was exclusive with her. So then I, I no longer used her, but if she had projects, she brought them to me. But yeah, it was through the magazine and it was totally, you know, I started a magazine as a health and fitness writer. Like, that was my area. So that's if you want to get into writing. I just was talking to a bunch of young women who are juniors, seniors in college. And I was saying like, find one area that you're really good at or really interested in. But then it expanded because I was like a fitness writer. Then I kind of started doing health stories, and then then I got into beauty writing.
Michele 00:45:45 But it was like beauty with the health twist. So it wasn't stories on five beautiful mascaras, but it was just like the benefits of these ingredients. And then from that I got into doing relationships. It just slowly evolved, but it was having one really narrow focus. And so when I was sending out those essays, most of them were fitness related, even though they were personal, you know, they were like about a ballet class I took or how I learned to ride my bike in New York City. They were all in that area. And then I like, you know, excelled at that. And then the magazines would be like, well, why don't you try this? And but I do think that's if you're if you're trying to get into that, that's a good way to go. And then with the books. So then I got that one book project and then I got another one and another one. And it just it went from like that being a small part of my business to magazines folding and the online ones don't pay as well.
Michele 00:46:38 And so then I just went completely into the book world and then the book proposal thing also just I didn't even know what that was. But when I did my first book, I didn't even know that ghostwriting existed. Like I didn't, I thought if you were Bill Clinton or, you know, someone, you wrote your own book, you sat and you. It's not how it is. most it's still your ideas. And I remember a few people saying to me, I can't believe you do that. They get all the credit, but it's not. It's their ideas. It's me just helping them organize it and put it on paper. And yes, I write it, but it's it's not mine and I'm fine with it. Like, sometimes my name's on the cover, sometimes it's on the title page. But for me, it's not like one of the agents I work with now said, having your name on the cover is for your mother, like so she can brag about you. Besides that, like, if someone wants to know who wrote a book, they can figure it out.
Michele 00:47:30 And also, you're always in the acknowledgments. And so anyone in the world, like if there's an agent with a celebrity client similar to something you've written, they're going to pick up that book, go to the acknowledgments, see that you wrote it, and you'll get the job. So I, I don't need to be like the center. I'm not really comfortable being the center of attention, so I'm fine with the behind the scenes thing. And it is their ideas, like people think that it's not, but it is. You know, sometimes people like blame the ghostwriter. I think it was Trump who had it or something in his book that they brought to a trial, and he said, oh, no. The ghostwriter wrote that. I didn't see that. And that's oh, I mean, I make sure my co-author sees every single word, and I've never worked with someone who didn't look at. I actually worked on one project where the person didn't look at anything, and it was super stressful because she's like, I'm sure it's fine.
Michele 00:48:23 This was years and years ago, and now I wouldn't let anybody do that. I'm so careful because you don't want anything published that they're not going to be happy with.
Brenda 00:48:32 Totally. And, you know, to your point about the ghostwriter with with Trump, that is par for the course, right?
Michele 00:48:39 Yes, exactly. It's not surprising. Yeah, but blame the ghostwriter. You know, you don't want to be that ghostwriter who gets blamed, that something made it into the book that you know or you know, that wasn't their idea or was and his was something just I don't even remember what it was, but it was, you know, so I don't think he used that ghostwriter again, but.
Brenda 00:49:02 I bet the ghostwriter wouldn't have taken the job even if he wanted.
Michele 00:49:04 To. Yeah, I think he's been interviewed before, you know about it, but it's it's fascinating. Like, it's just a fun job that I'm so happy I can make into a career. And it's flexible. And, you know, I'm always I feel like I work a lot, but I'm lucky that it's just something I love to do.
Michele 00:49:22 And and for me, during Covid, a lot of people were kind of turned upside down and I wasn't. I actually was busier than ever because all these people I was working on their books now had nothing to do. So it was I was churning them out. But, you know, it's a great flexible, it can be anywhere kind of job. And even and especially with zoom has been huge because now, meeting with clients, it used to be you really needed to meet in person because you had to spend time, because it wasn't in the first hour that you heard the good story. I remember working with someone, and she we sat for three hours and, and it wasn't our first time meeting. And then the third hour was when she told me about her eating disorder. And like, a whole part that was huge for the book. And I couldn't believe she waited that long. But they just need to get comfortable. So you have to meet like you have to meet in person. but zoom has also been really helpful for like those follow ups or small things or, you know, just connecting.
Michele 00:50:22 Yeah.
Brenda 00:50:23 So if somebody I know that people are going to reach out to you because they want to follow you, they want to see what you're doing, and maybe they want to take one of the courses that you offer. Where can people find you?
Michele 00:50:33 So my Instagram is m vendor eight, seven, eight or my website which is just Michelle bender.com Michelle was one Elle. And yeah I can you know I talk, I do when I can promote the books I'm working on. They're on my Instagram and I do have classes, and I'm about to start the one the writing from personal experience, which you can take that if you want to write a book or if you're someone like how I was way back. I just loved writing and needed that creative outlet, and then it turned into something. So you just don't know. But if you're someone who loves to write and it's the same thing, it's like we read it and you get feedback and it's so great to get different people's perspectives. it's so interesting.
Michele 00:51:12 Or you, you see what resonates. So it's really fun. And it's and again, most of the people you don't know, so it's not like it's strangers reading your stuff. And we do it on zoom and it's so much fun. And you learn a lot like you learn a lot from just listening to other people's work, you know. And we talk about the technique and, and that kind of thing. But it's really just doing it. Doing it is like sitting down and writing is the only way to write. But people think they think about it. They do outlines. They get index cards. You know, they spend years finding the perfect journal. It's like, no, just do it. Just sit down in that chair and write.
Brenda 00:51:48 Yes, agreed. Just sit down in that chair. Right?
Michele 00:51:51 Yeah. Which is the hardest part.
Brenda 00:51:53 It is. It is the hardest part to get started. But, you know, those prompts that you gave during the class that I took from you, one of those prompts, I don't even remember the prompt that you gave, I, I don't remember, but I do remember what I wrote about, and it was a memory that that has really been present for me over the last year with my dad.
Brenda 00:52:14 That's so interesting. So glad that you had. And it had the prompt had nothing to do with parents, right? Something random. I don't know what the prompt was, but.
Michele 00:52:23 That's so interesting.
Brenda 00:52:25 Yeah. And so, you know, the it's the gift that keeps on giving.
Michele 00:52:30 Yes. And it's interesting because in one of the classes, I don't know if it was ours or another one, we had people write just in seven minutes. We just sat quietly. We all wrote, and then only one person was brave enough to read, and hers was unbelievable. So good. And everyone was like, oh my God, I'm so intimidated by that. How did she do that in seven minutes? But it also inspired them because then a lot of people started reading their work, like the next class and the next class. So it is good to just be around that. It's so creative and it's fun and to hear and it also just to hear other people's stories is so impactful.
Brenda 00:53:03 Yes, absolutely.
Brenda 00:53:04 Absolutely. Well, Michelle, we probably will continue to talk after we stop recording. But thank you. Thank you for being here today.
Michele 00:53:12 You're so welcome. Thank you for having me I love you, I love your podcast. I love what you're doing. It's amazing.
Brenda 00:53:18 Oh thank you, I love you I love what you're doing. I love all the things you're bringing into the world and helping people to to share their stories.
Michele 00:53:27 Yeah, it was meant to be that day we met on the beach. It's so funny.
Brenda 00:53:32 It was. It was absolutely meant to be. Can't make that up.
Michele 00:53:37 No. You can't.
