Brenda (00:00:01) - Hi, Amy. Thank you for joining me.
Amy (00:00:04) - Hey, Brenda. Good to see you.
Brenda (00:00:06) - It's so nice to see you. And today we're both wearing green, which is pretty cool because we didn't talk about wearing green. No, we.
Amy (00:00:15) - Didn't. Very naturally coordinated.
Brenda (00:00:18) - We got the universal memo, and before we record it, you were telling me about the amount of joy that the color green brings to you.
Amy (00:00:27) - Very specifically lime green, Kiwi green, avocado green, that whole genre. It just ridiculous joy.
Brenda (00:00:37) - I love that so much. So for our listeners that may not know you, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and the work that you do in the world.
(00:00:46) - Yeah.
Amy (00:00:46) - So I call myself professionally a communication coach, trainer, professional speaker and author. And I, as the listeners will, can tell from the accent. I grew up in the US and about 29 years ago now moved to the French part of Switzerland. And it was 24 years ago. I started my own business as doing this work.
Amy (00:01:13) - Specifically Brenda, because I was I had been destroying relationships like it when I was a kid. And, you know, all right, let me say differently, since I was a kid, I've been picking fights that felt very justified, like, like, you know, I'm going to fight for the underdog. Except I would do it with. This raised and it didn't go up so well when I, especially when I started working. So that's when I knew, okay, I got to fix something. Luckily, I had an older sister who was already on her own path of self-discovery and learning, working on a communication model. And so when I started my own business, I was able to take that work she had developed and starting to use it in the world, first on myself and then on other people.
(00:01:58) - Whom I love, that.
Brenda (00:01:59) - I was I was talking to somebody on a recent interview about the importance of doing the work on ourselves first, before we try to take it out in, into any kind of product or course.
Brenda (00:02:12) - And I just love that you highlighted that.
Amy (00:02:15) - Oh, I was my own guinea pig, and I still am. I, I read this book, many years ago. Like where he talks about scientists who these people would use themselves as their own guinea pigs, a father and son who would be taking these substances until he passed out. I'm not that extreme, though. What I do, Brenda, is I'm in a situation I see. Oh, I think this communication approach could work really well here. Except it's a dicey somebody upset, somebody's angry, there's pressure. And I go in and I test it out. And sometimes it blows up in my face. So.
Brenda (00:02:55) - But it's an experiment, right?
Amy (00:02:58) - Exactly. And I'm like, okay, what did I learn? So. So I'm kind of like these scientists and and I never get tired of going out and testing it over and over.
Brenda (00:03:06) - I do the same thing when it comes to like, yeah, to embodiment, to energy healing, to energy work.
Brenda (00:03:11) - I'm always like, I wonder what would happen if. And then fill in the blank and then I go. I go try it out in the real world. And sometimes it works beautifully. And I find a new methodology and sometimes I'm like, oh, let me add that to the list of things I will not repeat.
Amy (00:03:30) - Yeah, I had a boyfriend one time who he would be horrified when he would see me do this because it would cause him so much pain, because inevitably I would come back and I'd be in tears and upset, and he would always want to talk me out of doing it, and I finally we sat down. I said, honey, what I really need is when I come back and I'm wounded and I'm crying or I'm embarrassed or, you know, I've got, you know, my my eyebrows are metaphorically singed. You know, I just need you to sit with me, hold me, give me some empathy. And then later on, after we've had a yummy meal, we can talk about how I could have done it differently.
Amy (00:04:03) - He's like.
(00:04:05) - Okay, okay, I can do that.
Brenda (00:04:07) - You know, you just highlighted something really important that a lot of my clients struggle with, which is how to articulate when you want someone to hold space, when we don't want someone to come in and solve a problem, we just are asking for it. Can you just witness me? Yeah, I love that.
Amy (00:04:25) - I sometimes remember with because I am in coach mode all the time, it gets me in trouble because I step into it before and I sometimes forget to ask permission. So with some people I'm getting better at, you know, as they come to me and I can tell they've got an issue and they're upset, I say, okay, so do you want me to be friend Amy, empathic Amy, cheerleader Amy or coach Amy? You know, like what's what category? Because I'll be flexible. And then if they sometimes say, I just want you to be cheerleader Amy. Inevitably, after they've been listened to, sometimes I then say, well, I do have an idea.
Amy (00:05:00) - Would you be open to it? So that's those are me on my really good days. Brenda, when I asked permission before.
Brenda (00:05:08) - Yeah, yeah, I think that that's real. And then, you know, I've noticed that in my own personal relationships, the more developed I get as a coach, the less tolerant I am of someone coming in to tell me how to solve a problem when I just want someone to listen to me.
(00:05:22) - Yes.
Brenda (00:05:24) - Yeah, yeah. So I remember a conversation that we were having inside a Dallas parlor, which is where we met.
(00:05:32) - And you were talking.
Brenda (00:05:34) - Yes. Shout out to Adela. Indeed. And you were talking about the idea of predator and prey in our relationships. And I was so fascinated by that, because the way that you made it sound is that we can shift roles depending on where we are in our lives, where we are in the relationship and what's happening. And it was kind of a mind blowing, concept. Could you talk a little bit about that? Because I know that's in your book as well.
(00:06:04) - Yes, yes.
Amy (00:06:05) - Okay. With pleasure. And stop me at any point if you have a comment or question. So and this goes back to, you know, in my family, I grew up with seven kids, three sisters, three brothers. So the oldest part is the one who created this model of predator prey partner. She's a recovering prey, a recovering predator. Luckily, I'm the shorter, younger sibling, so she was always safe. And it breaks. It's broken down to body language, voice, words. And then the piece I added was the mindset, what are we thinking? What are we feeling? What are we telling ourselves? That's either helping us to stay in partner or pulling us out of partner. So when you said shift for me, I often use the word flip flop or we slip more like we slip into predator or prey.
(00:06:56) - Under pressure.
Brenda (00:06:56) - So I just want to ask a quick question here. You mentioned predator prey and partner. So I'm assuming that when we are in a power neutral dynamic that would be the partnership.
Brenda (00:07:09) - Is that accurate?
Amy (00:07:12) - As long as that's how we're showing up.
(00:07:14) - Okay.
Amy (00:07:14) - So I think you're very close because it is all related to power. if, if I'm in a, if I'm in a power up or down relationship I can still stay partner. And what that does is it then neutralizes the power gain. No matter who they are, no matter who I am to them, except I've got to be hyper aware, conscious, have trained my muscles of how am I speaking. Am I standing. Is my face relaxed. Is my, you know does my voice sound sarcastic or scared. So Many of us have a preference. Let me start again. Most of us are in part and most time, like you and I. We're holding high respect for ourselves. High respect for the other. It's when we're under a pressure stress, perceived threat crisis. We're just over hungry angry, lonely or tired. We can flip flop into one or the other. And this happens rapidly and unconsciously at first.
Amy (00:08:14) - And so what's exciting is when I help people see what is their default and what's it costing them. So if I'm like a predator. Brenda, what what what what do you just let me explain, okay?
(00:08:25) - You're doing what?
Amy (00:08:27) - What's her problem? I will have left you feeling intimidated or ticked off. I would have damaged the relationship. So long term it doesn't work. The prey, and that's spelled prey, although they're often prey because they're really nice people.
(00:08:45) - Yeah.
Amy (00:08:45) - They will. Brenda, could I I'm sorry, I'm sorry, could I just. I'm sorry. Could I just explain? And now I'm sounding panicked and stressed and apologetic. I'm wanting to. And I'm doing it unconsciously, wanting to hold high respect for you. Except I'm holding low respect for myself. And that's not interesting for this person, because you're going to even someone as kind as you, Brenda, that could trigger you to become aggressive towards me. So another way to say that is many people, when they realize, oh my gosh, do you are you telling me that I have been triggering aggressive reactions towards me? And I had a guy last week I was working at Dorsal and Geneva and and he said, well, you're blaming us? I said, no, no, I'm you're right.
Amy (00:09:34) - It does sound like that. And and I hear that and take a deep breath, because what's behind that is tremendous power to shift those relationships.
Brenda (00:09:45) - Absolutely. And so I'm overlaying my my knowledge around the nervous system and embodiment and child parts and ifs and and I'm I'm hearing that there's so many similarities where, you know, if we come into the any situation with disempowerment, yes, we are inviting someone else to take control. And I think that that makes so much sense. I, I like the languaging that you use about predator and prey because it, it takes away the victim mentality. And I think that it's so easy to get stuck there, whereas like, oh, I'm a victim. Poor me. Yeah. Or me. Yeah. So when somebody is just becoming aware that there might be a power dynamic that has a little kink in it, whether they're in the predator side or the prey side, what are some of the the first things that they could do to be more mindful about their communication?
Amy (00:10:47) - even before mindfulness is I think there's got to be some gentleness because it's quite shocking for people when I work with them, when they see themselves as partners and they think.
Amy (00:10:58) - Well, I only want predator because it was justified. And then when we will do a roleplay. Like I was working with this guy in Lithuania years ago and he said, Amy, I live in this tourist town. So people, these drunk people get on the airplane, they're disrespectful to the flight attendants. So this one time I took this guy out on the tarmac and I was like, whoa. I said, okay, let's replay it. And this guy, he was like six foot four or something. They said, all right, I'm going to sit here. You're going to sit here, you're going to be the drunk guy. I'm going to be you, and let's see if I can neutralize it. And of course, I did. And he was horrified because he realized, are you telling me that I didn't have to act like a predator all these years to get those results? and that was quite upsetting for him. And so there's an important piece for a predator, because many predators, that's not their intention.
Amy (00:11:48) - To appreciate that you have had good intentions, and that saying you did the best you could with the tools you.
(00:11:55) - Had, right?
Brenda (00:11:55) - You did the best you.
(00:11:56) - Could, right?
Amy (00:11:57) - There are categories of predators who think the only other choices to go prey. So when they realize there's partner and they're like, okay, I'm I'm interested to keep talking. Right now the preys I think what I kind of said earlier is the prey is, is you. That's it's what we call like a strategy. You chose the prey strategies because that's what you learn. Perhaps in childhood that's what worked. That's what kept you safe. And now there's an upgrade available to you.
Brenda (00:12:25) - So how do the child parts like I guess what I'm asking is where do we differentiate between a behavior that we're choosing? Like for example, in this case of the man that you were talking to from Lithuania, where he was choosing to be a prey because he thought that was the option available to him versus somebody else who is stuck in a child part that, how do we differentiate that?
Amy (00:12:49) - Well, to clarify, he was choosing to be predator.
Amy (00:12:52) - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Predator, right? tell me more. When you say child part, what does that mean for you?
(00:12:57) - So for me.
Brenda (00:12:58) - It means that if we have a part of our child, like, let's say something happened when we were seven, there's a little piece of us that gets frozen in time. And that child, part of us is seeking to get their needs met all the time. And so sometimes when we get into some trigger situation, that child part will come online and begin making decisions for our fully resourced self. And and then we end up having behaviors that were like, I don't know why I did that, I don't understand. That's not in keeping with who I really am. I don't know why I responded that way. Whether it's hiding when you normally are not having an issue, being visible, or being really aggressive when you're typically not. so I was just wondering, how do we differentiate between a learned behavior of being a predator or, or prey and needing healing for a child part?
Amy (00:13:51) - How we differentiate.
Amy (00:13:55) - I'm going to answer a question. I'm not sure it's the question you're asking. Tell me.
Brenda (00:13:59) - Yeah, okay. Sounds good.
Amy (00:14:01) - what I would recommend is because when I work with people in my programs, we do a lot of roleplays. So they'll bring a real life scenario, either from their professional life or their personal life. And they say, well, this is what happened. This is how I behave. And I'm like, okay, so we determine if it was predator prey. In this case, let's say they were prey and then we replay it. To see what they can do differently to show up as partner. And so it's, it's it is so not rocket science. It is so tangible because people say oh you mean if I just stood there with my body, still can't eye contact and a soft smile and just nodded.
Brenda (00:14:44) - So you're actually re patterning the actual event.
(00:14:48) - Yeah, yeah.
Brenda (00:14:49) - And so I think we're talking about the same thing.
(00:14:51) - Wow. So yeah I.
Brenda (00:14:53) - Think yeah I think because I, I'm thinking yes, that's exactly what we do in like inner child healing is we give this inner child part a chance to be resourced, a chance to be repatriated.
Brenda (00:15:03) - And it sounds like that's exactly the same thing that you use through your your role play. Which brings me to another question. You use a lot of improv and roleplay in what you do. Can you talk to us about that?
Amy (00:15:16) - Oh yes, I love improv. It's up there with green. With Lorne Green. It really the two, I don't think. Don't make me choose. Really. So if we're listeners, improvisational theater is what I'm referring to is when you get a group of actors, they go on stage, they have no script, no preparation, no props. They create dances, skits, scenes out of seemingly thin air. Except that in improv there's a not a category, a series of of rules, guidelines, principles that we abide by. And when you abide by those, that's what allows the magic to happen. And from my sister Pat's studying improv of one of the many things she studied when she was putting this model together, she realized, oh, in improv you often have high status.
Amy (00:16:04) - Low status. And it's based on body language, voice, words. So that's the how you show up. And then the piece I bring is the mindset of improv, which is to say yes. Another way to say that is accepting offers. And make your partner look good. So that's a for me, a real mantra. I'm if you and I are performing improv together, Brenda and you come on stage and you say. Thelma. I'm telling you, you gotta stop pulling out the Halloween costumes. It's. You know, and I say to you, I'm sorry. I don't know you. I've blocked you.
(00:16:41) - Right. Right.
Amy (00:16:43) - Right. So I haven't accepted your offer. so in that case, I would say, well, you know, if we could have more fun here, I wouldn't have to pull out the Halloween costumes. So I've now accepted your your your invitation, your offer, and then I've built on it because now we have to figure out how are we going to have more fun in our lives.
Amy (00:17:04) - And maybe we're sisters, or maybe we're roommates, or maybe we're a couple. And that's the beginning of that scene.
Brenda (00:17:12) - That is so cool. So my mind is already racing. First of all, I love improv. I love theater in general. It just is my happy, happy place. And it's also making me think of the ways in which we might block a conversation. Yep. Like we. And when we think about everyone's. Statement is potentially a bid for attention.
(00:17:36) - Yes.
Brenda (00:17:37) - Or, you know, creating an offer and then thinking about the ways that we might be able to accept that offer, especially if it's from someone who we care about, someone we value, someone who's important to us in some way. my mind is blowing right now.
Amy (00:17:52) - I'm telling you. Yeah. This is why I never get tired of it. And it gives me so much joy.
Brenda (00:17:56) - Yeah, I can see that. So if somebody is thinking to themselves, I feel like I'm always in the power under.
Brenda (00:18:03) - Like I'm always the one that doesn't have power on the stage of stage of my life. What are a couple things that they could do? And then I'm going to ask you the inverse question in just a second. But what are some of the things that somebody who's thinking, I feel like I don't have any power in my life. What could they do that might shift that?
Amy (00:18:20) - Well, I would want to dig more deeply to get some specifics was when they say they have no power, what does that mean? And when I use this model of predatory partner, I apply it to interpersonal exchanges. In, in in any given circumstance with complete strangers, people you've been married to for years. And then they show me. Oh, well. When I at the dinner table. When I start to tell my family about my day, my husband rolls his eyes and now my teenage son goes, oh mom, your life is so boring. And all of a sudden I'm like, oh, I get it.
Amy (00:18:54) - Okay, let's fix that. And so then I have that person reenacted and we're paying attention to. where is their volume? Are they doing something called an upward inflection? So if they're saying, oh my God, I had such a, funny day, you, I have to tell you guys, it was, Let me let me explain. all of a sudden, she's lost. She's already lost them. So then I say, okay, so, Sandra, here's what you're going to do. You're going to say that as a statement with a downward flexion. You're going to say it with more volume. Guys. Something hilarious happened at work today. And then you're going to pause. So now we have her speaking louder, which communicates more confidence. A short sentence, which makes a listener more patient to digest what they've said, and the downward inflection gets rid of the filler sounds, the hesitation, the uncertainty, and the asking permission. I had a funny story. I really funny story.
(00:19:54) - I feel.
Brenda (00:19:54) - The difference in my body. Yeah.
(00:19:57) - Yeah. So those are already three, 4.
Amy (00:19:59) - Or 5 behaviors. So then she would. And it's a limited list. That's the really good news. This list does not go on forever. There's about. It's. Olena counts 714 to 16. Behaviors of from the partner model. One list is perceived competence.
(00:20:20) - Pause.
Amy (00:20:22) - Holding eye contact still body, for example, and the other list is perceived like ability smile. A vocal variation gestures. And so they do these lists of behaviors. They don't have to do all 14 or 16 all at the same time. And most people are able to do or already doing a lot of them. So it's really just maybe 5 or 6 behaviors that some that the general people, generally people have to really focus on.
Brenda (00:20:52) - That is so amazing. And I was just listening to, I can't even remember the source, but I was listening to someone talk about speakers who are trying to get into the speaker circuit, and one of the major problems that they have is the vocal inflection, where the sentence goes up at the end and then of course, there's no authority there.
(00:21:15) - Exactly.
Brenda (00:21:16) - Yeah, I love that.
Amy (00:21:17) - May I tell you a short story about.
(00:21:19) - Yes, please.
Amy (00:21:20) - Profound. This is. I was in Zurich giving a workshop. One evening was about to start. It was going to be a two hour workshop. A woman runs in. She's carrying her little fluffy dog. She said, I didn't have time to go home to drop off my dogs. Okay. If I bring them, I say, sure, no problem. So I start the workshop and I do the demonstration of the predator prey bit like I did with you. Good evening. My name is Amy Carroll. I'm happy to be here, you know, really aggressive, dominant. then I flip it into prey. Hi. Good evening. My name is Amy Carroll. I'm a coach and a trainer. I. I didn't even finish it. The dog starts growling. All right.
(00:21:57) - Mark, really?
Amy (00:22:02) - So all your listeners who are dog owners are like, oh, yeah, I know that trick.
Brenda (00:22:06) - Yeah. It's true, it's true. Oh my gosh. Okay, so we talked about the prey. Now what happens if I realize suddenly I have predatory behaviors and and I just want to make a distinction here in case anybody listening sometimes we use the word predator to think about somebody unsafe. But that's not what we're talking about in this conversation. We're talking about two different power dynamics in relationships. So the predator prey and partner not predator is and predatory. And so I just want to really make that distinction. Although it could be the same.
Amy (00:22:40) - The really. so there's three categories. There's four categories of predators. I mentioned to one who don't realize they're predators, so they're horrified and want to change immediately. Category two they think the only other option is to go prey. That's never happening in this lifetime. So when they realize there's partner in the middle, they're like, okay, I'm interested. Category three are the ones who enjoy it for the sport of it. And and even they can be transformed and and in invited to want to change.
Amy (00:23:12) - And usually it's after they've watched their video and they show and they see. Oh, I really sound like a jerk. Yeah, yeah. You did. Oh.
Brenda (00:23:21) - Oh, okay.
Amy (00:23:22) - And the other category, which is a very tiny category, is we call it the 5% club. People who are always going to be miserable to everyone no matter what. And unfortunately, that category, the story I make up about, that category, Brenda, is that they have been so traumatized in their lives that and it's unresolved trauma that this is the best they can do.
(00:23:46) - Okay.
Brenda (00:23:46) - So you just blew my mind again. So I was trying to say you know it's not the same thing as being a predator. But it could be. It literally could be. So if somebody is in one of the first three categories and realizes, oh, this isn't what I want to do, this isn't who I want to be. What could they do to shift their behavior?
(00:24:07) - Yeah.
Amy (00:24:11) - It's a little bit hard. The prey are more, much more often more motivated to change because the the cost to them.
Amy (00:24:19) - Right. Predators. Like I've been getting stuff I go well yes. And when they realize I can't tell you how many people in my life who I've, you know, personal and professional and I, I say, you know, this is how you're being perceived. You're showing up as a predator. They're horrified. And, Oh, no. Besides being horrified, sometimes they don't realize the the cost that the the other person, the recipient is so intimidated or or feeling scared, not willing to speak up. So all right, now we first get them motivated to want to change. So what can they do to change. Soft smile. Relax their eyebrows. I often use low tech Botox, also known as Scotch tape. I had I've done it many times. I'm like, I'm coming with the tape.
(00:25:15) - So where do you put the tape?
Brenda (00:25:16) - I'm so curious about this.
(00:25:17) - Where do you go?
Amy (00:25:18) - So even though you. Here, let me show you. So my eyebrows are up. You can see them.
Amy (00:25:21) - First I got to say relax, relax, relax. They're going. They are relaxed. No, relax. Some more relaxed.
(00:25:26) - Oh, okay.
Amy (00:25:27) - So first I get them to relax and then I put the tape. We say that lengthwise.
Brenda (00:25:32) - Yeah. Okay. So from the from the hairline down to the bridge of the nose. Is where the tape goes. And then they want to keep their eyebrows down.
Amy (00:25:43) - it's okay for the eyebrows to go up occasionally. What happens is they get stuck up there and they're talking to me like this. What are you talking about? I don't I don't my eyebrows are fine and they look really intense. And the eyebrow problem is also a problem for the pray speed and eyebrows. So if I'm talking really, really fast, what's the message. Hello Brenda. Aggressive. And I'm talking really really fast. What's the message Brenda. Panic.
Brenda (00:26:08) - Right. So either I'm being rushed or or I, I'm I'm trying to mitigate some panic.
(00:26:16) - Yeah. Yeah.
Amy (00:26:19) - So they.
Amy (00:26:21) - They don't have to worry about it. Once the tape is up there, they can start to feel their eyebrows. And once they can feel it, they can bring them back down. And then the good news is they don't need the tape for the rest of their lives. They just to start to sensitize that area.
(00:26:34) - Yeah, that makes sense.
Amy (00:26:35) - Right. So a warm smile. I used to think, Brenda, has this ever been the case for you? For me? Many, many years. Complete strangers, often people of the male gender would say smile.
(00:26:47) - And it used.
Amy (00:26:48) - To make me crazy. And what I've learned about a smile is that it's literally saying to the other person today you're safe. Today you won't die. Can't promise tomorrow. And when I've realized, oh, so if a stranger says to me now smile, I'm like, I can do that. You want to feel safe? Not a problem.
(00:27:09) - Happy too. Okay.
Brenda (00:27:12) - So I have a question about the smile but I want to come back to when we're done talking about predators, because I know that the smile is perceived differently depending on where in the world you are.
Brenda (00:27:21) - And so I'd love to talk more about that smile.
(00:27:24) - Okay. Good.
Brenda (00:27:25) - but let's let's finish talking about predators and then we'll and then we'll talk about smiles.
(00:27:30) - Okay?
Amy (00:27:30) - So, they want to have a warm smile, to look approachable. They want to have a relaxed face, to look safe. They want to. And interrupting is something that the predator prey can have. Even partners. well, when you're being a really good partner, you're letting yourself be interrupted and you're avoiding interrupting. Although I do teach people how to interrupt in an effective way, people can go and check up the website. On my website, I've got a video on active listening and active interruption. So, when you let yourself be interrupted, you're showing respect for the other person. And when you don't interrupt them, and then when you're letting yourself be interrupted, there's a higher probability the other person will let you interrupt them. No guarantee. The other thing is moving slowly active listening. That's a big one. And is there another one other than those main ones.
Amy (00:28:25) - Well. Interestingly, people who are predators also accidentally do the upper inflection.
(00:28:33) - Oh, really? Yep.
Amy (00:28:35) - And because we get socialized to do it, and women get socialized to speak with the upper inflection to not sound threatening. So what happens to predators is they use the upward inflection. It triggers someone to go predator on them. And because they're predators, they go predator back. So by mastering the downward inflection for both a predator and a prey, they're going to eliminate the likelihood of someone verbally addressing them.
Brenda (00:29:02) - This is so interesting. I work with a lot of C-level executives and, leaders positions. Just people that are are working with big teams. And one of the conversations that I had yesterday was with one C-level exec, and she is partners with her husband, and she was saying that when she talks to her team. That a lot of times they question what she's saying and that when her husband comes in and says something, the team does not question what's being said. And and we talked about that from an energetic standpoint because that's the work that I do.
Brenda (00:29:42) - But I'm overlaying what you're telling me about the downward inflection, and it's making me really curious if that could make a big shift for her. Right. Yeah.
Amy (00:29:53) - That's cool. The other things you would want to consider is, Is she keeping her body still? Is she finishing her sentences? Is she keeping her sentences short? Is she pausing between the sentences? Is she? Did I say this one already holding eye contact to show confidence in herself respect for them.
Brenda (00:30:14) - So good. It's so good. And it's stuff that we can all use in different situations because no matter who you are, at least in my experience so far in life at age 51, I'm thinking that we can all really up our game in communication to build our own authority. Yeah. And and not necessarily power over, but to have that sense of authority so that we can have a voice in the world.
(00:30:41) - Yeah. Yeah.
Amy (00:30:43) - So that's where my passion is really helping specifically women to be empowered because the playing field is still uneven.
Amy (00:30:51) - So this can help adjust that.
Brenda (00:30:53) - Right. Oh so good, so good. So let's talk about the smile for a second.
(00:30:59) - yeah. Please.
Brenda (00:31:00) - So depending on what you look at, whether you're looking at a website or a book or a travel book, you're looking at sociology or ethnography or it depends on how they talk about the smile. And I have heard that Americans are viewed as being, like, very, very smiley by the world in a way that is perceived to be inauthentic and almost garish. And so as I've traveled around the world, I've been very aware to try and meet and match the basic facial expression of the people that I'm encountering, and I find it really difficult to not smile all the time, because my go to is pretty much like, I'm having fun, I'm joyful, I'm enjoying myself. If I'm not smiling, it's because I'm thinking really hard about something or I'm like, engaged in a task which is kind of the same thing. Or I might be worried about something which doesn't really happen that often.
Brenda (00:32:02) - So my go to like my default setting is a big smile. And yeah, so when you talked about a smile communicating safety and you travel and work with people all over the world, how do you find that the perception of the smile differs or does it when we get into actual relationship?
Amy (00:32:23) - Most people I work with don't smile enough in my very biased opinions. And I was something I learned many years ago when I was working with someone and we were playing with the smile and practicing, and they did this and I said, oh, oh no, no, no teeth. No, that's, that's a, that's a flirty smile. And we did. And because that will send the wrong message. So then they were so relieved like okay, no teeth. So the way I and people when I show them, I go, okay, here's a bad fake smile. Right. It just looks forced.
Brenda (00:32:55) - Okay, so as if you're a listener, what you're seeing here is no smile in the eyes.
Brenda (00:33:01) - The smile is coming from the from the bottom of the mouth, only up through the cheeks. And then the eyes are not actually smiling.
Amy (00:33:08) - Good description. And that's exactly the trick. Then I say, now I demonstrate. This is what a good fake smile looks like. What did I change? In the eyes. So listeners, go to the mirror and pull out your phone and just simply play with smiling from your eyes. And then because luckily the muscles are attached. It'll bring up the cheeks enough for you to look approachable and safe. And that, to me, is the standard smile that I think is maybe universal.
(00:33:39) - Okay.
Brenda (00:33:40) - And that yes, that makes so much sense. And so the lips are closed predominantly and there might be a little bit of teeth in this, you know, if you are like taking a drink of something or speaking, but the lips are closed and the smile is with the eyes and the lips.
Amy (00:34:00) - The eyes. So let me do it. Let's see if I can just do with the eyes.
Amy (00:34:03) - So it's like I do with the eyes. I light up the eyes. And then that the mouth comes up just enough that it's. It's good enough.
Brenda (00:34:10) - Yes, exactly. It's just the the edges. Just the very corners of the mouth come up. It's not a whole face smile. It's just the edges of the mouth and then the eyes. That was really cool.
Amy (00:34:19) - Cool. Because. And to realize, oh my God, I am sending a sense, a message of safety to someone. I'm more than happy to do that. Yeah. You know, so I don't take it personally if someone commands me to smile.
Brenda (00:34:36) - I don't get asked to smile very often because.
(00:34:39) - You probably don't.
Amy (00:34:39) - Need to I.
Brenda (00:34:41) - It's kind of my default right.
(00:34:44) - Yeah.
Brenda (00:34:45) - So you we talked a little bit about your book but I'd love to to talk about how listeners can get that because you have that as a gift for our listeners.
Amy (00:34:54) - I do so for the listeners. All they need to do is go to my website, which is Carol coaching.
Amy (00:35:01) - Com and that's with two bars and two L's. And go to contact. So it's Carol coaching. Com slash we call it forward slash contact. And all we need to do is send me an email and say Brenda Winkle. Thank you very much. Just mention Brenda's name and we will and ask for an e-book. And we will send you the download and all the good information.
Brenda (00:35:24) - Oh, go do that right now and I'll put the link in the show notes. So if you did, if you didn't remember that, you can go click the link in the show notes. And then, you know, Amy and I were talking before we started recording about how fun it would be to hear what your takeaways are from this episode, and to hear what your favorite parts are, and also to hear what questions you have. So if you take a picture of yourself with your smile or dancing, or even just where you're listening to this podcast episode and put us in your stories, you can find Amy and I both on Instagram.
Brenda (00:35:55) - Put us in your stories, we're going to store you back, and we'll make sure that we really just get some beautiful. I, smiling, smiles out into the world. We can compare and contrast. So send us your smile. Love it. It'll be so fun and we can start a movement and let us know what questions you are or what questions you have. And we will answer you. We will literally answer. And so we can't wait to hear from you. Because, you know, when we think about relationships, my view is relationships are where we do our deepest learning there, where we really evolve as humans. Like my evolution, my personal evolution has come from learning to be in safe and sovereign connection with others. And so, you know, I think that when we have avoidant or anxious attachments, which so many of us do right, we can accidentally isolate ourselves. And when we learn how to be better communicators, we don't have to feel that isolation. And so invitation to make sure you download that book and go find Amy on Instagram at Amy Carroll Coaching.
Brenda (00:37:07) - And again, that's with two hours and two L's. And you can find me at Brenda Winkle. And we cannot wait to just story the heck out of all of you and your beautiful smiles.
(00:37:19) - Yeah, Amy, before.
Brenda (00:37:21) - We kind of come to a close, I have one last question. Sure. Which is what is one thing you either did or did not do that has brought you to your yes filled life?
Amy (00:37:34) - Yeah. Ironically. And I'll give you a moment to explain. It's saying yes, ma'am, because that's one of the improv principles, right? Say yes, except offers. When I, I started my business at 37, that's when I started to figure out what I wanted to do. And in my 20s already, I thought, you know, whatever I do in life, I've got to be passionate about it. And I thought, well, how am I going to know what I'm passionate about? And I thought, okay, I'm just going to do everything and I'm going to say yes to anything that's interesting to me.
Amy (00:38:04) - So I'm going to work on a dude ranch in Wyoming and a ski resort in Maine, and I'm going to go travel and see my friend in the Caribbean, etc., etc., etc.. Oh, learn French. Oh, and travel to Switzerland and take a job as a travel director. Okay. And it was that bit by bit by bit by saying yes to all these things. Sometimes they weren't for me many of the times they were, and it was having the willingness to get it wrong to make a mistake, to, you know, a failure, have a failure and still know that I was going to have an adventure along the way.
Brenda (00:38:42) - I really love that. That is so exciting. And, you know, I think your point lands squarely with me about sometimes our yeses allow another. Yes. Even if the thing we said yes to isn't the thing that we stick with, because it was like a stepping stone to the next thing. And to me, I call that energy richness. Like going where the energy is rich with that want to or that curiosity.
Brenda (00:39:07) - And so that's so inspiring. Amy, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for being a guest.
Amy (00:39:13) - Oh, it's been my pleasure, Brenda. Really delightful talking with you.
Brenda (00:39:17) - So good. All right, listeners, go check out how to get that free e-book. And then we cannot wait to see you over on Instagram.
